Pro-Choice?

I find pro-choice to be a problematic term. I'm not sure anyone can really answer this question without unpacking that term a bit. I think one can oppose legislation that eliminates abortion without liking abortion and without being a bad person. Still, according the the church having an abortion is a sin.

A sin punishable by immediate excommunication, no formal procedures necessary. Recent comments coming from the Vatican strongly lean towards the position that being pro-choice is a grave sin, and someone who is pro-choice should abstain from communion until their position on the matter is in line with the church. Supporting an act where babies are cut up with scapels and have their brains sucked out is a serious matter.

And apostate Cardinals' denials aside (*cough* McCarrick *cough*), those in prominent public positions are absolutely, unequivocally forbidden from taking communion if they publically support this act of infantacide.

And apostate Cardinals' denials aside (*cough* McCarrick *cough*), those in prominent public positions are absolutely, unequivocally forbidden from taking communion if they publically support this act of infantacide.

Doesn't this vary from diocese to diocese?

Recent comments coming from the Vatican strongly lean towards the position that being pro-choice is a grave sin, and someone who is pro-choice should abstain from communion until their position on the matter is in line with the church.

"Lean towards"? Could you clarify this?

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I read a lot about this topic around the time of the election, and my brain got too tired to hold it all in much past November.

The cut-up-babies bit isn't rhetoric. It's a matter of fact description of what happens.

Pro-choice people are so precictable. They absolutely abhor the prospect of the public learning about what actually takes place during an abortion. If they knew how ghastly it was, after all, they might start to lose public support.

Do your homework.

Hold up, here, friend. "Do your homework"? I'm aware of what goes on in an abortion. I was asking for clarification about the portions of your post in which you said that public officials who are pro-choice are "absolutely, unequivocally forbidden from taking communion" and that comments from the Vatican "lean towards the position that being pro-choice is a sin."

As to whether pro-choice people don't want others to know what takes place during an abortion, I know lots of pro-choice people, and I'm not aware that any of them take this position. You may be right about some, but I question your generalization of all of them.

Hi. Mod here. Tone it down. This place is for facts. You opinions of others go in your own journal.

Thanks.

I think you meant to snark at me, yes?

If my assumption is correct, don't lecture me, and don't assume I am ignorant. WE DISAGREE. Deal.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/elections/ratzingerletter.htm

Thanks for the lecture, but you know I won't agree, especially with the cut-up-babies/infanticide rhetoric. You didn't address my point, which is this: if a person opposes abortion but thinks that a legislative response is not the correct one, that makes the issue of being prs-choice a bit thornier, as it becomes a political/legal issue rather than a moral one.

Out of curiousity, is using birth control punishable by instant excommunication? If not, why not? Isn't it a sin on the level of being pro-choice? Or is the Church just aware that if they excommunicated BC users they'd have no Catholics left? And if that's the case, could the same thing happen if there were enough pro-choice Catholics?

it is NOT true that there would be no Catholics left, plenty of Catholics either welcome all children or practice NFP. And being prochoice isnt punishable by instant excommunication, having an abortion is. As to whether or not use of birth control is instant excommunication, well that depends on your understanding of the term. If you are willingly using birth control to prevent pregnancy, then to my knowledge you are commiting a mortal sin, you cannot take Communion with an unabsolved Mortal sin on your soul, so in effect, you are excommunicated until such time as you confess and discontinue the practice.
With Love,
marie

I know not all Catholics use birth control... I just know a good number of them do. I exaggerated for poetic effect. :)

Thanks for the response.

Some of the more conservative elements of the church will tell you that the fact of beign pro-choice is an automatic excommunication.

If you think you are abusing the Eucharist, you are "Drinking damnation upon yourself" so decide for yourself. Personally, I think that you can be pro-choice, as long as you feel that abortion is wrong even if you feel it ought to be legal.

I agree with what you say, and that's how I feel on the issue, personally. Thank you, along with everyone who replied.

Whoops, sorry, forgot to log in. :-)

I'm not aware of any groups who would say that being pro-choice is an excommunicatable offense. Having or materially assisting in an abortion, absolutely, and the wording found in the Code of Canon law is beyond debate, it simply is what it is.

However, while not punishable by excommunication, it is a fact, backed up by decrees from the CDF, that being pro-choice is a grave (i.e. mortal) sin, and those holding that position should not come forward for communion until they repent.

I'm aware of several priests who would say it is, and I assumed the psycosis was more widespread than those men.

psychosis.. and its not one.

I admit to the spelling, but the idea that a policy stance is enough to keep you from the Blessed Sacrament shows either profound ignorance, stupidity or insanity and I prefer not to think that these people are ingorant or stupid for the sake of politeness.

When its a "policy stance" that could mean the death of countless millions... it is not insanity to believe that it is a grave enough matter to warrent the witholding of the Body of Christ, for the sake of the policy holder himself, for with that on his head, he indeed would be drinking his own destruction.
With Love,
Marie

It depends. And what it depends on is how you define pro-choice, what you do about your pro-choice leanings and why you are pro-choice.

If you actively and publically promote abortion, then you have placed yourself outside of Communion with the Church and receiving the Eucharist will bring Paul's warning of eating destruction. If you actually participate in an abortion - get one yourself, perform the proceedure, pay for one, drive a woman to get one, advise a woman to get one - then you are automatically excommunicated and cannot receive any sacraments.


For any Catholic belief wo which we find ourselves unable to conform our conscience to any Church teaching, we have an obligation. We are called to a discipline of prayer, study, contemplation and spiritual direction. This obligation persists as long as we are unable to conform our conscience .. even if that means for the rest of our lives. The reasoning is if someone truly understands a teaching and just as importantly understands the reason they find it difficult to accept, they will in the end accept it. The Church is confident in her understanding of Truth, so she finds no reason to hide behind blind obedience.

Also, consider how much has gone into the formulation of each Catholic teaching. If you spent every moment of your entire life researching an issue, you still would not have put in even a fraction of the research, study, prayer and critical examination the Church has. When we consider how much the Church has put into formulating a belief and how much we can devote to our opinion, it is quite an act of arrogance to just conclude that the Church is wrong and we are right. Rather, the Church's call to formation of conscience is a call to humility, a call to accept that no matter what contemporary Western society tells us, the individual is not the arbiter of Truth. We recognize that we cannot conform our conscience, but accept that it may just be us who needs to change and do not put an end to our growth.

Honestly, I have never met a person who has actually rejected a Church teaching who has been able to adequately explain the teaching. I have, however, met several who has embraced the path of formation of conscience that the Church lays out who still cannot reconcile their consciences but have found tremendous spiritual growth from the process. That says a lot in my mind.

Well said. Thank you.
With Love,
Marie

What advice would you give to someone who understands and accepts the teachings of the church, but whos partner is struggling with it?

Rather delayed response....

The key is to return to first principles. We have to remember that Catholicism's conclusions are built on the premises of Catholicism. So, I think the place to start is by explaining the value of the premises of Catholicism and demonstrating how they differ from those of society, then you can more from there to the conclusions.

"Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
'You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.'"

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It doesn't get much clearer than that. Furthermore, even if you think you have a legitimate doubt whether or not abortion, or the support thereof, is a serious sin, by receiving Communion, you are most likely committing a sin of negligence--you are engaging in an action that is grave matter that is very likely to be a sin. Please, please, please do not be so proud to be absolutely convinced that you are correct in your opinion about abortion. The Church is very clear on its teaching. However, if you are, for some reason, not convinced that it is all that clear, do not take the risk of eating and drinking yourself unto judgment. Investigate the matter thoroughly and I think you will find that the teaching of the Church is utterly unequivocal.